Journals of the Senate
61 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2012, Canada
Journals of the Senate
1st Session, 41st Parliament
Issue 113
Tuesday, October 30, 2012
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Noël A. Kinsella, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Ataullahjan, Baker, Bellemare, Boisvenu, Braley, Brazeau, Brown, Buth, Callbeck, Carignan, Champagne, Chaput, Charette-Poulin, Comeau, Cools, Cordy, Cowan, Dagenais, Dallaire, Dawson, Day, De Bané, Demers, Downe, Doyle, Duffy, Dyck, Eaton, Eggleton, Enverga, Finley, Fortin-Duplessis, Fraser, Frum, Furey, Gerstein, Greene, Harb, Hervieux-Payette, Housakos, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kenny, Kinsella, Lang, LeBreton, MacDonald, Mahovlich, Manning, Marshall, Martin, Massicotte, McCoy, McInnis, McIntyre, Mercer, Merchant, Meredith, Mitchell, Mockler, Moore, Munson, Nancy Ruth, Neufeld, Ngo, Nolin, Ogilvie, Oliver, Patterson, Plett, Poirier, Raine, Ringuette, Rivest, Robichaud, Runciman, Segal, Seidman, Seth, Smith (Saurel), St. Germain, Stewart Olsen, Stratton, Tardif, Tkachuk, Unger, Verner, Wallace, Wallin, Watt, White, Zimmer
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Ataullahjan, Baker, Bellemare, Boisvenu, Braley, Brazeau, Brown, Buth, Callbeck, Carignan, Champagne, Chaput, Charette-Poulin, Comeau, Cools, Cordy, Cowan, Dagenais, Dallaire, Dawson, Day, De Bané, Demers, Downe, Doyle, Duffy, Dyck, Eaton, Eggleton, Enverga, Finley, Fortin-Duplessis, Fraser, Frum, Furey, Gerstein, Greene, Harb, Hervieux-Payette, Housakos, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kenny, Kinsella, Lang, LeBreton, MacDonald, Mahovlich, Manning, Marshall, Martin, Massicotte, McCoy, McInnis, McIntyre, Mercer, Merchant, Meredith, Mitchell, Mockler, Moore, Munson, Nancy Ruth, Neufeld, Ngo, Nolin, Ogilvie, Oliver, Patterson, Plett, Poirier, Raine, Ringuette, *Rivard, Rivest, Robichaud, Runciman, Segal, Seidman, Seth, Smith (Saurel), St. Germain, Stewart Olsen, Stratton, Tardif, Tkachuk, Unger, Verner, Wallace, Wallin, Watt, White, Zimmer
The first list records senators present in the Senate Chamber during the course of the sitting.
An asterisk in the second list indicates a senator who, while not present during the sitting, was in attendance to business, as defined in subsections 8(2) and (3) of the Senators Attendance Policy.
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Tabling of Documents
The Honourable Senator Carignan tabled the following:
Public Accounts of Canada for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2012, as follows: Volume I — Summary Report and Financial Statements, Volume II — Details of Expenses and Revenues, Volume III—Additional Information and Analyses, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 64(1). —Sessional Paper No. 1/41- 1347.
Annual Report of the Courts Administration Service, entitled Supporting the Delivery of Justice for all Canadians, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2012, pursuant to the Courts Administration Service Act, S.C. 2002, c. 8, sbs. 12(2).—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-1348.
Presenting or Tabling Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Gerstein, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce, tabled its seventh report (Unauthorized disclosure of confidential committee documents, pursuant to Appendix IV of the Rules of the Senate). —Sessional Paper No. 1/41-1349S.
The Honourable Senator Gerstein moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Wallin, that the report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Day, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance, presented its thirteenth report (Bill C-46, An Act to amend the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, without amendment).
The Honourable Senator Carignan moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that the bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
SPEAKER'S RULING
On October 25, Senator Marshall raised a question of privilege without notice, pursuant to rule 13-5(a). The issue dealt with a meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance held earlier that day. Since the events giving rise to the question of privilege took place less than three hours before the Senate sat, the normal written notice could not be provided.
Senator Marshall explained that, after hearing the scheduled witness on Bill C-46, she had intended to move a motion for the committee to proceed to clause-by-clause consideration of the bill. Before she could move the motion, the chair declared the meeting adjourned. This prevented her from proposing a motion for decision by the committee. Following this intervention, other senators participated in consideration of the question of privilege, including the Honourable Senators Carignan, Chaput, Cools, Hervieux-Payette, Mercer, Mitchell, Moore, Nolin, Stratton and Tardif. Senator Day, the chair of the committee, then indicated that efforts were being made to facilitate consideration of the bill. He noted that, after hearing from the scheduled witness, he had outlined the committee's agenda for its next meeting and, since there was no further anticipated business, had declared the meeting adjourned.
In terms of the general process, rule 13-5 allows flexibility in raising a question of privilege when the matter arises after the time for giving written notice. The rule seeks to accommodate unusual or urgent circumstances and, as such, correct processes were followed by Senator Marshall.
The fundamental issue of the question of privilege is whether the chair of a committee has the power simply to end a meeting. Here in the Senate, adjournment always occurs following the adoption of a motion or by the operation of the Rules. The Speaker does not act unilaterally. Even in a case of grave disorder, rule 2-6(2) puts limits on how long the Speaker can suspend the sitting.
Rule 12-20(4) states that "[n]o Senate committee shall adopt procedures inconsistent with the Rules or practices of the Senate," so the limitations on the Speaker's power would, with modifications required by the circumstances, apply to committees. This conclusion is supported by reference to page 1087 of the second edition of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, which notes that "[t]he committee Chair cannot adjourn the meeting without the consent of a majority of the members, unless the Chair decides that a case of disorder or misconduct is so serious as to prevent the committee from continuing its work."
In practice, however, the consent of the committee to adjourn is usually given implicitly, rather than explicitly. To again cite page 1087 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, "most meetings are adjourned ... informally, when the Chair receives the implied consent of members to adjourn". This also holds in Senate committees, and may have contributed to misunderstanding in the situation at issue. To avoid such incidents, and to assist the orderly flow of proceedings, it would be desirable for the chair, in the absence of a formal motion to adjourn, to verify whether any senator has business to bring forward at the end of a meeting. Similarly, committee members who wish to raise matters should clearly signal this to the chair. This should help the committee to function better and also help to prevent any premature adjournment in the future.
To return to the fundamental issue of whether there was a breach of privilege in this case, parliamentary privilege is the sum of rights, beyond those existing under the general law, that are necessary for the houses of Parliament and their members to accomplish their work. The Speaker's role when dealing with a question of privilege is to assess whether a prima facie case has been made out. In making this assessment the Speaker is assisted by the provisions of rule 13-3(1), which outlines four criteria to be used in determining whether priority should be given to a question of privilege. The question of privilege must meet all the criteria.
While the question of privilege before the Senate certainly fulfills some of the criteria, it is not clear that the requirement of rule 13-3(1)(d) is met. That provision states that the question of privilege must "be raised to seek a genuine remedy that the Senate has the power to provide and for which no other parliamentary process is reasonably available." In this case, the action of the committee chair in adjourning the meeting without verifying if there was other business is really one of order, and, as such, there is another reasonable parliamentary process available. The matter could be raised as a point of order in committee, where it can be dealt with more effectively. This may help avoid such situations in the future.
This is not to deny the serious nature of this incident raised by Senator Marshall. Upon consideration, however, it would seem that there is another mechanism to deal with this problem. The matter can more appropriately be taken up as an issue of order in the committee itself.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills — Second Reading
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Motions
The Honourable Senator Carignan moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Poirier:
That, in accordance with rule 10-11(1), the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance be authorized to examine the subject-matter of all of Bill C-45, A second Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 29, 2012 and other measures, introduced in the House of Commons on October 18, 2012, in advance of the said bill coming before the Senate;
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance be authorized to sit for the purposes of its study of the subject-matter of Bill C-45 even though the Senate may then be sitting, with the application of rule 12-18(1) being suspended in relation thereto; and
That, in addition, and notwithstanding any normal practice:
1. The following committees be separately authorized to examine the subject-matter of the following elements contained in Bill C-45 in advance of it coming before the Senate:
(a) the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce: those elements contained in Divisions 1, 3, 6 and 14 of Part 4;
(b) the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources: those elements contained in Divisions 4, 18 and 21 of Part 4;
(c) the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications: those elements contained in Divisions 5, 12 and 20 of Part 4;
(d) the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples: those elements contained in Division 8 of Part 4; and
(e) the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry: those elements contained in Division 19 of Part 4;
2. The various committees listed in point one that are authorized to examine the subject-matter of particular elements of Bill C-45 submit their final reports to the Senate no later than November 30, 2012; and
3. As the reports from the various committees authorized to examine the subject-matter of particular elements of Bill C-45 are tabled in the Senate, they be deemed referred to the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance so that it may take those reports into consideration during its study of the subject-matter of all of Bill C- 45.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted, on division.
Inquiries
Order No. 3 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills — Second Reading
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Commons Public Bills — Second Reading
Orders No. 1 to 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Second reading of Bill C-299, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (kidnapping of young person).
The Honourable Senator White moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator McInnis, that the bill be read the second time.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Tardif moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fraser, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Second reading of Bill C-321, An Act to amend the Canada Post Corporation Act (library materials).
The Honourable Senator Plett moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator St. Germain, P.C., that the bill be read the second time.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Tardif moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hubley, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Reports of Committees — Other
Orders No. 1 to 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Motions
Orders No. 109, 75 and 83 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Inquiries
Order No. 40 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Callbeck, calling the attention of the Senate to the importance of literacy, given that more than ever Canada requires increased knowledge and skills in order to maintain its global competitiveness and to increase its ability to respond to changing labour markets.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Lang moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Martin, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 51, 54, 50, 45, 35, 48, 46, 30, 3, 19, 44, 37, 9 and 18 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
INQUIRIES
The Honourable Senator St. Germain, P.C., called the attention of the Senate to the current state of First Nations self-government in Canada.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Carignan moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Poirier, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 14-1(7):
Report on the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2012, pursuant to the Act, S.C. 2005, c. 46, sbs. 38.1(4).—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-1342.
Report of the Federal Bridge Corporation Limited, together with the Auditor General's Report, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2012, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 150(1).—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-1343.
Report of the Chief Public Health Officer on the State of Public Health in Canada for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2012, pursuant to the Public Health Agency of Canada Act, S.C. 2006, c. 5, sbs. 12(2).—Sessional Paper No. 1/41- 1344
Copy of Order in Council P.C. 2012-1373, dated October 18, 2012, concerning the approval of the supplementary convention, which is intended to alter the Convention between Canada and the Republic of Austria for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income and on Capital, done at Vienna on 9 December 1976, as amended by the Protocol done at Vienna on 15 June 1999, pursuant to the Income Tax Conventions Act, 1980, S.C. 1980, c. 44, Part XI, sbs. 33(1).—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-1345.
Report of the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission on the operation of the National Do Not Call List for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2012, pursuant to the Telecommunications Act, S.C. 1993, c. 38, s. 41.6.—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-1346.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Carignan moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Martin:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 4:50 p.m. the Senate was continued until tomorrow at 1:30 p.m.)
Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 12-5
Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples
The Honourable Senator Martin replaced the Honourable Senator Patterson (October 30, 2012).
The Honourable Senator Cordy replaced the Honourable Senator Campbell (October 29, 2012).
Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry
The Honourable Senator Eaton replaced the Honourable Senator Braley (October 26, 2012).
The Honourable Senator Rivard replaced the Honourable Senator White (October 26, 2012).
Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade
The Honourable Senator Wallin replaced the Honourable Senator Segal (October 26, 2012).
The Honourable Senator Finley replaced the Honourable Senator Demers (October 26, 2012).
The Honourable Senator Duffy replaced the Honourable Senator Housakos (October 26, 2012).
Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights
The Honourable Senator Carignan replaced the Honourable Senator Andreychuk (October 29, 2012).
Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration
The Honourable Senator Cordy replaced the Honourable Senator Day (October 26, 2012).
The Honourable Senator Campbell replaced the Honourable Senator Tardif (October 26, 2012).
Standing Senate Committee on National Finance
The Honourable Senator Neufeld replaced the Honourable Senator Gerstein (October 30, 2012).
The Honourable Senator Finley replaced the Honourable Senator Greene (October 26, 2012).
The Honourable Senator Gerstein replaced the Honourable Senator Marshall (October 26, 2012).
The Honourable Senator Callbeck replaced the Honourable Senator Mitchell (October 26, 2012).
The Honourable Senator Greene replaced the Honourable Senator Finley (October 25, 2012).
Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence
The Honourable Senator Boisvenu replaced the Honourable Senator Nolin (October 29, 2012).
Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology
The Honourable Senator Eaton replaced the Honourable Senator Raine (October 26, 2012).
The Honourable Senator Cordy replaced the Honourable Senator Mercer (October 26, 2012).
The Honourable Senator Dyck replaced the Honourable Senator Moore (October 26, 2012).